Re: “Two Face jail time in census protest ”
From the GLOBE & MAIL WEBSITE, COMMENTS FROM READERS
Both refused to hand in forms because Lockheed Martin won the contract to upgrade Statistics Canada’s software …
blue nose from Calgary, Canada writes: I used to work for Statscan doing telephone surveys from 2003-2006 and this is the first time I’ve ever heard of someone actually facing jail time or a fine for refusing to do one of their surveys.
Of the thousands of surveys I did with people from all over Canada, only once did I hear anything about the Lockheed Martin issue. Many people groaned when they found out their household was selected to do a survey, and some weren’t too happy when they realized that they were obligated by law to do some of them (Labour Force Survey).
I don’t see any problem with awarding the contract to LM, if they were the lowest bidder, then Statscan is saving taxpayers money.
Stewart Mawdsley from Canada writes: They have my support. Lougheed Martin is right up there with Halliburton for companies profiting off of death, war and human misery. Kudos to these two for drawing attention to this issue.
Jack Robertson from Toronto, Canada writes: It’s a shame that millions more Canadians didn’t join them in refusing to support the U.S. war industry.
Given that these two people will become political prisoners if jailed, Amnesty International should take up their cause.
siren call from Canada writes: I sure hope the Harper government gets real tough on these scofflaws.
Really, just because Lougheed Martin is one of the greatest purveyors of misery, hopelessness and death on the planet — still their bid came in the lowest (?) and that’s what really matters.
(Wish I had known about this and refused my census form.)
blue nose from Calgary, Canada writes: Lockheed Martin doesn’t kill people, governments that go to war kill people!
Bob McDonald from Canada writes: Lockheed Martin is just one of the military corporations support by Harper. He authorized the spending of billions for new aircraft from these war mongers while the Canadian aero industries lanquish. The NeoCons in Ottawa are anti-Canadian fascist same as the hoodlums in Washington.
Slippery Slope from Canada writes: Whatever happened to freedom of Privacy?
Robert Boyd from Windsor, Canada writes: It’s the law and the law requires that your personal information be auctioned off to anyone who ponies up the do-ri-mi.
Fcuking Nazis.
Rt. Revd. Malachy Egan from Halifax, Canada writes: StatsCan is an oozing sinkhole for taxdollars. It’s ‘stats’ are utterly useless and the organization as a whole is a nepotic federal nightmare which provides sinecures for those related to the powerful and their closest cronies.
Hooray for Todd Stelmach and Sandra Findley I admire them, support them, and having refused to complete the last inane survey that StatsCan threw in my direction [I recall it was about how the ‘clumping’ quality of kitty-litter makes my life easier despite Harper’s arrogant government and their federal contracts with the agents of death] , I am ready to go to jail with them.
Larfing Outloud from Virgin Islands (British) writes: Robert Boyd from Windsor, Canada writes: ‘It’s the law and the law requires that your personal information be auctioned off to anyone who ponies up the do-ri-mi.
Fcuking Nazis.’
Fcuking A.
Absolutely right on comment.
Vote NDP in the next federal/ provincial election from Toronto, Canada
writes: There’s something wrong with this census. First they threaten you with prosecution if you don’t fill it out. Then what’s the point then. Why don’t we guess our figures from now on then.
Why is the government awarding a contract with an American company. The problem is that the American government doesn’t believe in privacy hence USA patriot Act and with an American company contributing to the census then there’s the fear that Canadian information can be used in the States for unauthorized purposes. I’m sure that Canadian companies can do a much better job here with lower costs.
I stand behind the two people who are facing prosecution and we the people should dedicate the resources necessary to defend them.
On another note, I hope Lockheed Martin will go bankrupt for the foreseeable future.
Robert Loblaw from Canada writes: Rt. Revd. Malachy Egan – The census in question was in 2003.
The ‘federal contracts with the agents of death’ were not signed by Harper’s government, but by Chretiens.
Gardiner Westbound from Canada writes:
If, unlike some people, you lack immunity from prosecution, the solution is to answer incorrectly. Not blatantly so you get your butt thrown into the slammer, but enough to throw the civil service bean counters off.
A Concerned Canadian from Vancouver, Canada writes: I’m happy to see there are a few Canadians left who are willing to stand up for what they believe in.
Rick C from Canada writes: Their reason is irrelevant. They can do the jail time for their crime.
Justin Campbell from Ottawa, Canada writes: Rt. Revd. Malachy Egan from Halifax, Canada writes: ‘StatsCan is an oozing sinkhole for taxdollars. It’s ‘stats’ are utterly useless and the organization as a whole is a nepotic federal nightmare which provides sinecures for those related to the powerful and their closest cronies.’
In fact, Statistics Canada and the quality of its work is highly respected.
The Economist magazine calls it the ‘best statistical office in the world’, and many other reputable publications have made similar pronouncements.
(http://www.sshrc.ca/web/apply/background/cissaboute.asp)
Robert Rivers from France writes: Compliance… NO MATTER WHAT.
Nassar Ben Houdja from Canada writes: Criminals, sentence them to a life as galley slaves on one of BC ferries, soon to be converted from diesel. Time to treat criminals like the vermin they are, and reduce BC’s carbon footprint.
bobloblaw,better read the article again,it’s the 2006 census.
Robert Loblaw from Canada writes: garlick toast – Take your own advice – read the article and then read my post.
The awarding of the contract to Lockheed Martin took place in 2003. Thats what Ms. Findley was protesting.
So, what’s the answer? The answer is, as it always is, continue the current charade as long as the electorate will stand for it. Historically, the status quo only changes when the body politic no longer meets the needs of a significant majority of the people. I read these posts with almost daily amusement, so forgive me if I say that now in 2008 the balance of satisfaction versus dissatisfaction appears to be about 50/50. [The reasoning ranges from factual, through irrational to assinine.] I guess a swing of 15 to 30% from one side or the other ought to make for an interesting situation, don’t you think?
Chester Mere from No Fixed Address, Ont, Canada writes: I can understand the census wanting some basic info but for decades we have been bothered with surveys wanting details of our farming op usually during seeding or some other busy time. And the long form wants such details as utility costs per year and it would take quite a while to compile the info to fill it out truthfully. But maybe as many people lie high as lie low so it averages out.
Too bad the privacy acts don’t protect us from nosey governments.
Mark Shore from soemwhere in Canada, Canada writes: I did know about Lockheed Martin’s involvement but filled the census out like a good little robot anyway.
For some reason I had a hard time remembering my income, education level, ethnicity, religion, languages spoken, etc. so I just took my best guess.
After all we Afro-Inuit Zoroastrians have to stand up and be counted or we just get ignored.
Alberta Dennis Notso,redneck from Canada writes: I hope they throw them in jail. Plain stupid to complain about who gets the upgrade contract. I suggest if they do not like what happens here then get out period.
michael moore from toronto, Canada writes: Lockeed helped write the software. They don’t get to handle the data. It’s like saying the guy who sewed the pocket into your pants gets to look through your wallet. There are causes worth standing up for — even going to jail for — but this one misses the boat. All emotion and no sense, like most of the posts in this string.
brian bishop from Brantford, Canada writes: The “Statistics Act” already contains enough valid reasons for not completing the census, below is a sampling. Besides there’s no law that requires anyone to read mail! 3. There shall continue to be a statistics bureau under the Minister, to be known as Statistics Canada, the duties of which are (b) to collaborate with departments of government in the collection, compilation and publication of statistical information, including statistics derived from the activities of those departments 9.Use of sampling methods (2) Notwithstanding anything in this Act, the Minister may authorize the use of sampling methods for the collection of statistics. 1970-71-72, c. 15, s. 8. 0. (1) The Minister may enter into any arrangement with the government of a province providing for any matter necessary or convenient for the purpose of carrying out or giving effect to this Act, and in particular for all or any of the following
matters: (b) the collection by any provincial department or provincial officer of any statistical or other information required for the purpose of this Act: and (c) the supplying of statistical information by any provincial department or provincial officer to the Chief Statistician. Returns under Income Tax Act 24. For the purposes of this Act and subject to section 17,
(a) the Chief Statistician or any person authorized by the Chief Statistician to do so may inspect and have access to any returns, certificates, statements, documents or other records obtained on behalf of the Minister of National Revenue for the purposes of the Income Tax Act or Part IX of the Excise Tax Act (Link no longer valid: http://www.statcan.ca/english/about/statact.htm )
The Globing Male from Formerly of Beantown, United States writes: “Vote NDP in the next federal/ provincial election from Toronto, Canada writes: I stand behind the two people who are facing prosecution and we the people should dedicate the resources necessary to defend them.”
…typical socialist – stand BEHIND them to protect them, so you don’t take the bullet. But you can claim later that you were there just the same, and in so, take the glory.
Mister G. from Canada writes: Some people also refuse to pay taxes because they don’t agree on how the government spends it. Trow the scumbags in jail.
It’s the law to fill the census form in Canada just like it is the law to pay your taxes.
Joe Liberali from Canada writes: What could be worse? That the data is processed by Lockhead in the US?(which would be wonderfully expropriated by the US gov’t under the PATRIOT act).
Joe V from Canada writes: Lockheed Martin is a well-run corporation with a history of technological success. I’ll bet unlike most Canadian companies that could have been contracted, StatCan probably got their money’s worth on this contract. As for the actions of the U.S. government, don’t blame the supplier of military hardware. Would you prefer that the U.S. military had junk equipment, leaving Canada defenseless?
Cognitively Cogitative from Canada writes: The Canadian government benefits substantially from taxes collected from WMD manufacturers. Why shouldn’t they award contracts to these same war profiteers.
Canadian Woman from Canada writes: Good old NCP boys! Wasting our time & money again on prosecution of a few people who didn’t fill out their bloody census. And yes, boys! LET”S waste a bunch more money on imprisoning these evil-doers! My god! This Gov. keeps on disgusting me more and more. Well.
The good news is that at least they’re consistently disgusting.
Dave of the North from Yellowknife NT, Canada writes: No .. Really… send me one of these census dealies to fill out. Out of principle alone I will tell you where to go. There was a time when doing something illegal meant you were doing something wrong. How sad that this is no longer the case.
Randy D from Canada writes: I’d say I hope they become new brides in their cells but being from the left undoubtedly they’d like that.
4Cryin Outloud from Canada writes: Statscan at the time said they contracted out to a foreign weapons maker because there was no one in Canada basically smart enough to handle the sofware upgrade. Then they said “don’t worry, no one will have access to your private information because we will be in charge of that”. I asked if you’re not smart enough to do the software when did you become smart enough to monitor what the software can do?
Statscan has become nothing more than an information gatherer for business and there’s enough of that going on already without us paying a huge bureucracy to make it unlawful for noncompliance. Talk about fascism.
Read the article – the previous government also prosecuted individuals for refusing to fill out the census forms.
Michael Powers from Canada writes: Listening to all of these self-proclaimed hero’s is always good for a chuckle in the morning.
To the ramparts, we have to defend ourselves against whatever nutty cause there is today after all it is silly season and we have to keep ourselves entertained.
James C from Shenzhen, China writes: they’ll be found guilty, but probably be given several chances to make up for it before serving time. make an example of them, throw the book at them.
Troy Ackerman from Canada writes: Bob McDonald from Canada writes: Lockheed Martin is just one of the military corporations support by Harper. He authorized the spending of billions for new aircraft from these war mongers while the Canadian aero industries lanquish. The NeoCons in Ottawa are anti-Canadian fascist same as the hoodlums in Washington.
__________________Well, if the Canadian aero industry was capable of producing aircraft of the same type and ability for the same cost we would have. Look at the Griffon helicopter we got from a Canadian company! The thing is junk! Should have used the US helicopter industry to get Blackhawks instead. The yanks make the best stuff, so why not buy off them. WHat is it with all this neo-con anti Cananda crap anyway? Guess the party you voted for didn’t win, eh.
Anthony B from Maritimes, Canada writes: “Because of trade agreements such as NAFTA the bidding process for government contracts is open internationally to companies like Lockheed Martin”
So, if a Canadian company was the lowest bidder to write software which collects personal data on US citizens, it would get the contract?
“He (Mr. Morrison) likened the company’s role to that of a programmer upgrading a personal computer”
And we all know that a programmer would NEVER look at the data on our computers, right?
“Under no circumstances does anyone other than a Statscan employee, sworn in under the Statistics Act ever have access to any confidential census information,” he said.
Well it’s comforting to know that Statscan doesn’t share confidential information with CSIS, the RCMP, Revenue Canada, etc. Oh, and I also believe in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy.
Jeffrey Hallow from Canada writes: What’s with the jokes about purposely messing up the stats??? That’s the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard. The census and the statistics are vitally important to so many aspects of Canada, I can’t imagine why anyone would want to mess with that.
I hate Lockheed too but these people broke the law. They should be fined or even jailed. If anyone purposely does not fill out census OR if anyone purposely lies on their census form they should face criminal charges.
Jeffrey Hallow from Canada writes: Anthony B from Maritimes, Canada writes:
And we all know that a programmer would NEVER look at the data on our computers, right?
Anythony – it’s actually very simple for StatsCan to ensure they do NOT have access to the data. Because you see… there is this thing called SEPERATE DATABASES and environments. Jeez. Lockheed can develop the software completely without any access to real data. StatsCan would have their own seperate database which Lockheed would have no access to. It’s actually quite simple.
Posted 06/07/08 at 8:33 AM EDT
4Cryin Outloud from Canada writes: Jeffrey Hallow from Canada writes: What’s with the jokes about purposely messing up the stats??? That’s the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard. The census and the statistics are vitally important to so many aspects of Canada, I can’t imagine why anyone would want to mess with that.
I hate Lockheed too but these people broke the law. They should be fined or even jailed. If anyone purposely does not fill out census OR if anyone purposely lies on their census form they should face criminal charges.
Jeffrey, how many people have you talked to about the census form? There isn’t one person I know of that gives correct information, or fills out the form so that it’s legible. You, by all accounts are screwing up the stats.
Frank Castor from Zephyr, Canada writes: I have entered false info on each of my last two census, (censi?) (censuses?)….Anytime I’m asked to fill out info on any government survey, I always enter BS…..Try it out next time, it feels like a good alternative.
P S from Toronto, Canada writes: Let me see if I follow everyone’s logic here. War is bad, Lockheed Martin sometimes makes weapons, therefore try to hurt Lockheed Martin and there will be less weapons and no war!
Brilliant..
And good thing that there are no other companies that make competing weapons or dictators that start wars without buying anything from Lockheed Martin.
Lefties, it must be nice to live in your simple world.
Simon Proxy from Canada writes: For those who lie on their census you should know that the info is used to determine how much money and attention to give your groups. As such information is based on percent of population that is something lying simply hurts the categories that actually apply to you and your culture, history, etc.
But hey, if you don’t care about the voice and funding that your ethnic, social, financial, religious, cultural, or other group gets then go ahead an lie, it harms no one but your ethnic, social, financial, religious, cultural, or other group.
But the real shame about StatsCan isn’t that they outsourced to the best vendor some work, its that they stopped keeping tabs on foreign takeovers back during the Mulroney era. If your Stats org stops recording certain stats because the tally might upset some people then the data is inherently compromised. It doesn’t matter who they get their pencils and code from.
Karunaratne Jeyatilleke from Ottawa, Canada writes: ‘2’ people protested and it is NEWS!!! 100,000 Canadian Tamils protested yesterday at the Downsview park and nothing about it!!!!
J. Bergin from Canada writes: Good, sent them to jail. The country would come to a grinding halt if everyone is allowed to decide what laws they will abide by. Also, these two people should realize, that companies which build military products also build everyday items, I would bet there is a number of items that they use everyday that were built by companies with ties to the defense industry, such as their car, computer and microwave to name just a few. So unless they are ready to live a cave, their argument is ridiculous.
Troubled Youth from Everywhere, Canada writes: Ya the story is about two Anglos who stood against the system and will be sent to jail and fined, not the 22 reserves that failed to comply with the law. Bias? Really? Oh Canada.
I know it may be a little difficult for you to accept, but frankly, your personal information is boring. Government workers don’t care what your middle name is, how many kids you have or what your address is. I know everyone likes to think of themselves as being oh-so-important, but you’re not – you’re just a drop in the bucket, unlikely to illicit any reaction close to wanting to sell your information. Get over yourself.
J P from Vancouver, Canada writes: I have had to include results from Statscan in the research I do and it pains me because I am an expert in my area of research and the questions asked by Statscan and census surveys are the wrong questions, thus generating “wrong” results. Thus, the results are seriously flawed and actually skewed in the “wrong” direction. So, as Canadians we are forced by law to participate in flawed research and in so doing aid government contributions to war profiteers. This bitter irony increases my pain severely. I am saddened by the fact that I, unlike these two forward looking individuals, did no research before complying so I would know about the Lockheed Martin role in this useless exercise. I will most definitely do so next time and if it is necessary I will join the like minded Canadians, who have posted here, in doing righteous jail time.