CONTINUING WITH INPUT, QUESTIONS & ANSWERS REGARDING THE CENSUS AND LOCKHEED MARTIN:
Submitted on 2011/05/06 at 3:35 pm
Thanks for the details Marc. Responses are embedded below.
Frustrating situation. I’ve received emails from a couple of other people who have also received the Agriculture form, on top of the census and on top of income tax.
When we would all like to be outside!!
Sandra – – – – — – – – –
Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2011 8:43 PM
Subject: Re: Lockheed Martin CENSUS: what a riot!
On that line you wrote (“Note that although the Harper Government announced last year that the census long form is no longer mandatory, they never did change the law.”);
I understood that the long form was no longer mandatory and so many others believe that too (was all over the media at the time with the Francophone association filing in court to maintain it, etc) and so what happens if I set the census aside ?
I know you as a law-abiding person. People haven’t a chance of being law-abiding if they don’t know what the law is. I asked for the appeal hearing in my trial to be expedited so that people would have the legal decision before the census. Queen’s Bench (appeal court from provincial court decision) is back-logged. They were not able to accommodate.
In my view, based on knowledgeable and experienced legal advice, we have a right to privacy of personal information.
I also believe that citizens should act morally and they should expect as much and more from the Governments they elect.
so what happens if you set the census aside? (INSERT: see the response to Rob)
Did the government not change the law because of the lawsuits/legal challenges they faced, or did it just not get done as part of their ‘to-do’ list?
RESPONSE: I think they may have made rash statements without having done their homework first:
After they made the announcement in June 2010 that the long form would no longer be mandatory I emailed to ask if they were going to change the legislation? Their reply was about how they are going to a new “National Household Survey (NHS)” to replace the “long form”, etc.
I replied asking them to forward my input to the people who would be drafting the actual legislation – – the wording they supplied to me was double-speak. As I understood the email I received, they were saying that the long form (NHS) would be “voluntary” inasmuch as there would no longer be the threat that you could go to jail (which was the actual coercion factor they used all through the process). But still the “long form” or NHS would be “mandatory”.
Something cannot be simultaneously voluntary and mandatory. And that’s the message I requested be forwarded to the drafters of the legislation.
It is possible that the legislation never went anywhere because it was poorly thought-out; drafters of legislation would not be able to make a law out of what the Govt submitted.
The entire paper census was dropped off here by a local woman a few days ago, who happens to be the Canada Post outlet manager.
Do you actually write in “No Lockheed Martin” somewhere on the form like on the comments section at the end? or website and submit?
RESPONSE: Yes – – write it in anywhere, right across the face of the form.
Actually I just looked at the form for the first time just now and see that is an 8 pager so is this the ‘short form’ RESPONSE: Yes.
and if so is this one still mandatory if the long form would have actually been changed by law to not be mandatory?
RESPONSE: The “short form” is not mandatory by virtue of it being the “short form”. It is or is not mandatory based on whether it is in compliance with The Charter Right to privacy of personal information.
I don’t know what questions are asked in the 8 pages. The Charter Right to privacy of personal information is important and it overrides the Statistics Act. You do not have to submit information that is “personal” unless the Government can show (blah, blah, blah, — they can’t meet the “unless” criteria ) … The legislation and interpretation of the legislation is not difficult to understand. Click on: • LEGAL argument
Today we received the Agriculture Census in the mail (16 pages), and right in seeding season (well not quite because of weather, but there’s still lots of work to do at this time of the year…) and they expect us to fill that out too!? The envelope has that line too: “Complete the Census – it’s the law.”
This census document is much more detailed and onerous and delving into private matters like precisely disclosing all financial details like gross income and most expense details , etc. Would take me considerably more time to fill this out and after having just spent days working on filing for income tax, I’m not up to digging up stats again. Contrary to the ‘regular’ census that says to complete it “…within the next 10 days”, the Ag census says to fill it out based on May 10th current data but has no deadline.
Here’s what Stats-Can has on the back to explain why they are bombarding us (ie: Lockheed M.) at this time:
“But why in May?
Statistics Canada recognizes that, for farmers, mid-May is one of the busiest times of the year as they rush to get crops in the ground. However, collecting the data at the same time as the Census of Population and combining public awareness campaigns — even though the two censuses are very different — streamlines procedures and saves millions of dollars.
Conducting the two together also provides the opportunity to show the human side of agriculture. When the two censuses are conducted at the same time, it is possible to provide information on the characteristics of the farm population such as family size, age and marital status.”
Here’s what they have about the financial stuff:
“Why not use tax data instead of asking financial questions?
Currently, it is necessary for respondents to provide business information for their agricultural operation on the Census of Agriculture questionnaire. However, Stats Canada will use information provided on this form to study the feasibility of replacing the detailed operating expenses in STEP 32 by tax data. If successful, Statistics Canada will use tax data in the 2016 Census of Agriculture to reduce the response burden for farmers.”
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Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2011 8:21 AM
Subject: Census 2011
Thank you very much for your e-mail.
Unfortunately the You Tube addresses are only related to the United States and not Canada.
Did you ever think about to do your own You Tube broadcast for the Canadian people. My friends all mentioned that it should be done for us Canadians too.
I think it would help us very much, and could convince more Canadians to refuse filling out the Census forms. My friends did not even believe me that … (our info may well) end up in the States. People really do not know (about Lockheed Martyin).
Maybe you know some other very well known Canadian people who would be willing to do that for us.
I just try to give you some more ideas how you can help us normal folks to stand up against Stephen Harper and all the corruption which is going on.
Have a great day,
P.S: There are Canadian people on You Tube who want some info like the following broadcast: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6yozjzqRt4
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Submitted on 2011/05/06 at 3:13 pm
Two people contacted me today who are willing to do something along the line you propose.
Will get back to you. (a youtube video was made: http://sandrafinley.ca/?p=2449 )
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Submitted on 2011/05/06 at 3:08 pm
I contacted you last year re the last Census form.
My wife and I did NOT fill out the form and had no repercussions.
We too don’t want Lockheed Martin involved.
We have just received this years form and are hesitant to comply if Lockheed is involved.
Any information? Any collective actions being taken?
“In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.” – George Orwell.
REPLY: There is a lot of interest. I am having trouble keeping up. I am going to post to blog (www.sandrafinley.ca) I will send you a second email with details. /S
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From: rob Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2011 2:09 PM
Subject: RE: Census
Thank you for getting back to me soo quickly….I have an interest in your battle with stats-can regarding the census of 2006. U’ll understand why, if u read the draft of the solidarity and support letter i’ve attached below.
As u probably know by now, 2011 is a census year here in canada…as u also may/may not know, i don’t participate….
I’m in the process of attempting to scramble something of a support team for myself this year. The reason for this is because i expect there may be more than just census workers showing up at the apartment sometime over the next cuppla months. Altho actual charges and arrests appear to be rare for refusing to comply with census law, it would appear that this is in the process of changing. Last census year (2006) a woman was charged in saskatoon/saskatchewan, and forced to work her way thru the entire court process before finally being “granted” a full discharge.
Last count suggests that about 2 million residents of canada did not comply with census law in 2006. About 50-60 people were actually charged, across the country. This leads me to assume/believe that the govt/police are using census law in the same fashion that tax evasion law was used against al capone, meaning as a means to harass/intimidate/incarcerate those the state is unable to get by other means. This ‘realization’ increases my sense that at some point in the relatively near future i could/should expect the same treatment that was doled out to that woman in 2006 . . .
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Date: Thu, 5 May 2011 Subject: RE: Census
This is from a reply sent to another person.
“so what happens if (you) set the census aside (don’t fill it in)?”
Objective evidence: in the 2006 census, many thousands of people did not comply in one way and another. Some by setting the census aside. Some by defacing the census form so that it could not be electronically processed. Some by providing responses that were funny but obviously not true, etc. etc. A person from inside StatsCan said that the non-compliance rate with the long form almost doubled between the 2001 and 2006 censuses.
For the May 2006 census, 64 or 65 people received summons to court. The Govt has a maximum of 2 years in which to lay charges. My first court appearance was April 15, 2008.
StatsCan denies that I was prosecuted because my opposition was public. I don’t actually believe them.
If you set your census aside and are quiet about it, IF enforcement follows past practice, the chance of being prosecuted is small.
This year MANY, many more people are aware of Lockheed Martin’s involvement in the census. The number of non-compliers (in comparison with 2006) will be multiplied.
I think the best strategy for all of us is to talk about the census, about Lockheed Martin’s involvement in it, etc.
THE MORE people that know, the more informed they are, the more non-compliance there will be. The Government needs to know that we will not be enablers, providing the money for the American military-industrial machine.
I will put you on my email dis’n list, so you receive updates. When we work with, share what’s happening and support each other there is no need for individuals to be afraid. As I say, there are simply too many of us. And we are creative people!
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May 6, 2011
I have no interest in “playing dumb” when it comes to my census refusal. As i’ve already indicated, i’m already in the process of organizing a support team to take care of business for me “on the outside” as i fully expect to be charged.
What i need to know from u is what (exactly) to expect with regards to that process…based on yer own personal experience…so again…when u were targeted as a non-complier, were u suddenly arrested by police one day or were u served with papers summoning u to court?? The answer to this question would be a good place for us to start…when i have this piece of the puzzle i will then know how quickly my support network could/would need to spring into action.
Ultimately, any/all info u can give me about yer direct personal experience with persecution/prosecution will/would be helpful. I just don’t feel like i have the time to spend on exploring scenarios i’ve already counted out as a part of my process (such as ‘setting census aside’ or getting creative with the responses).
Thx again fer getting back to me and i look forward to yer next reply;
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Submitted on 2011/05/06 at 3:00 pm
Response to your question:
“when u were targeted as a non-complier, were u suddenly arrested by police one day or were u served with papers summoning u to court?”
It was a long, drawn-out affair. The first phone call I received to convince me to fill in the form was in May 2006. Charges were laid two years later (spring 2008). The Judge’s decision was delivered in January 2011. The appeal of her decision will be heard on October 19, 2011.
DETAILS: StatsCan repeatedly attempted to get compliance from May 2006 through to the fall of ‘06. I had a pleasant, lengthy conversation with them, outlining the reasons I will not be an enabler of Lockheed Martin Corporation. I know the subject matter fairly well.
They cannot offer effective counters to the logical arguments. They offer reassurances and rhetoric. Eventually they use letters of coercion, words to effect: “You will be prosecuted; the penalties are a fine of up to $500 and/or up to three months in prison”.
I was given dates to comply by. Eventually StatsCan turned the file over to the Justice Dept for prosecution. (NOTE: 64 or 65 people out of many thousands were referred for prosecution.) The Justice Dept then gave another extension and repeated “You will be prosecuted; the penalties are a fine of up to $500 and/or up to three months in jail”.
There is a two-year limitation period for laying charges. I received the summons to court in late March 2008. They must hire people to deliver the summons. At 7:30 at night a middle-aged man in blue jeans, ball hat and jacket rang my doorbell. He said something like “Hi Sandra, this is for you.” and thrust an envelope into my hand. He smiled, turned and drove away in a shiny, black half-ton truck.
Two weeks later I presented myself to the Court to enter plea (not guilty). The date for hearing the case was set (January 2009). And so on.
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Submitted on 2011/01/25 at 11:27 am
Thanks very much for your input. I know there are excellent people working inside Government in service to Canadians. We too seldom hear – almost never – that side of the story. It is reassuring to know that StatsCan employees also objected to the involvement of Lockheed Martin.
In answer to your questions:
1. Did you refuse to answer the Census because Lockheed Martin was involved in the processing?
2. Would you have responded if the information had been processed by Stats Can employees?
RESPONSE: I would not have been alerted to the fact that there is ANY problem with the census, had it not been for the involvement of Lockheed Martin Corporation. So, no – – I might have cringed at the amount of information requested, but I would have responded in some fashion.
In closing: I have run an activist email network for 10-11 years. People submit information related to the topics we are working on. The book “IBM and the Holocaust” was recommended to me.
If you haven’t read it, you might want to read about it at http://sandrafinley.ca/?p=185 . People who have worked with censuses have a special interest.
Today I would not comply with the long-form census because of the state-of-the-world. It is all in media articles. “The Americans want the data” on all Canadians (Ottawa Citizen reporting on a security conference). “President of the Americans for Lockheed Martin” describes to Macleans Magazine (Sept 2006) how they are going to get what they want – and not through legislative changes because they can’t get it that way. They’ll get what they want by working through the bureaucracy, outside democratic control. And so on. I posted the information (too much of it!) to the blog so that people will know I didn’t dream this all up. It’s there, but it has to be pieced together in order to see the larger picture. At the top of the webpage you’ll see “Lockheed Martin … ” adn from there the “INDEX” which makes it easier to see what we are up against.
All the best to you in this next phase of your life!
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Submitted on 2011/01/22 at 6:22 pm
Hi Gray Slate,
Thanks for your comment.
I don’t take a stand on an issue based on whether Stephen Harper is for or against it. Nor do I take a stand based on what people will think of me.
If something is wrong, it’s wrong and if I believe it to be so, based on good evidence, it is up to me to say so. It is the responsibility of citizens in a democracy. Informed dialogue is critical to the proper functioning of democracy. If you disagree with me that’s fine, but it’s your responsibility to point out the error in my logic.
You probably know that I objected strenuously to the contracting-out of census work to Lockheed Martin of the American military-industrial complex. I joined thousands of others in protest, starting in 2003 before Harper was Prime Minister.
I presume you think that my stand on the census is going to cause Stephen Harper to get more votes?
I believe that my stand on the census is going to cause many more Canadians to understand that we are coming under the sway of the war-mongers. Not only are we coming under their sway, we citizens are financing them. While taking our own economy into record debt – – just like the Americans.
There is a trade-off – – statistics or – – . I think we are at a point where we have to deal with the real world. Lockheed Martin is dangerous company and they are working their way more and more into Canada, exactly the same as they have taken over parts of the American economy, notably the war machine.
From the email I sent out yesterday:
In today’s world Lockheed Martin is inextricably intertwined in the questions for Canadians of:
– privacy of personal information; one of their specialties is “surveillance”
– whether we want the American military-industrial complex duplicated in Canada, through the offset agreements in the Government contracts with Lockheed Martin
– whether we want the de-stabilizing influence of the massive public debt that goes along with Lockheed Martin (we currently have the highest-ever deficit of any Canadian Government; we are simultaneously about to sign up for $16 billion more debt for Lockheed Martin F-35 fighter jets. The people of Norway refused to go there. We can, too. It’s a hard battle – Lockheed Martin now has more lobbyists in Ottawa than the oil and gas industry. We already have corporatocracy, not democracy. But there are tens of thousands of us. WE will be the ones paying the debt and the interest on it. While the public programmes that need financing are starved.
The Americans let the Lockheed Martin military-industrial complex take over. They are hated because of their illegal wars and indiscriminate killing ways. They have a mountain of debt; their economy cannot generate the income necessary to ever get themselves out of debt. Tax-payer money through interest payments on debt is funneled to the wealthy investors in Lockheed Martin and their ilk. The rot in the system almost brought the world economy to its knees; it still is a huge de-stabilizing influence in the world.
– whether we want an economy that becomes dependent upon the waging of war, as the American economy has become
– Do we want to get sucked into the vortex? Make a conscious decision.. If you decide “no” then fight with every opportunity that comes our way.
– As the people of Iraq know, the American military-industrial machine is dangerous especially if you, as a nation, have resources that transnational corporations covet.
– All in all, it is an environment in which we need the protection of the Charter Right to Privacy of Personal Information. Please refer to 2008-12-06 if you have any doubts about the value of the Charter Right, the use of census data bases (detailed files on citizens) in police states.
That’s how I see it Gray Slate.
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Submitted on 2011/03/30 at 5:21 am
Greetings from England. We have the same Lockheed Martin problem here. You may find the following sites interesting, if not useful.
and if you click on the “long version” of this you get all the details (including useful stuff on barcodes etc).
There is also a census in Poland coming up, but I don’t know which firm has the processing contract. Does anyone know Polish to check it out?
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Submitted on 2011/03/30 at 7:39 am |
I’ll contact Derek Czernewcan – – he was prosecuted for failure to fill in Cdn census. See http://sandrafinley.ca/?p=182
He will be able to translate, I believe.
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Yesterday May 3,2011), we received an envelope from Statistics Canada which just gives the street address. No names. It was not addressed to me or Susan, or the previous owners, who moved out last October. So I passed it on to the three cats who live at this address. They ignored it, probably because it didn’t smell like food. So I guess it will go out with the other junk mail.
Does Lockheed Martin have security clearance? Why? Corporations have no citizenship. They can’t be charged with treason. They have all the rights and privileges of human beings but no responsibilities, unless mandated and governments have been giving away the power to apply rules, by letting corporations put their own people into government ranks, as Deputy Ministers and Assistant Deputy Ministers and Chiefs of staff, etc
Has Lockheed-Martin sold to both sides in a conflict? Yes.
Does L-M have the information needed to take control of the citizens of the U.K., the U.S. and Canada? How? By doing all three censuses, and they know how to get all those taxpayers to pay for their costs.
Is that what they used to call magic?